Jesus the Lawbreaker

Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities
has the power to make you commit injustices.
-Voltaire

Was Jesus really free of sin? For centuries, Christians have taken his sinlessness for granted. The best way to settle the matter is to compare Jesus to the most revered laws in the Bible: The Ten Commandments. The good news is that Jesus did not violate the first two commandments. The bad news is that he violated the last eight. Rather than leave the first two commandments void, I decided to compare Christianity to them. My conclusion is that it fails big time. I have heard Christians wonder why Jews don't accept Jesus. This report will partly explain why.

Most Christian's don't take the Ten Commandments as strictly as I am applying them. But I think it is only fair to apply them as the Jews of that time saw them.

17"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. (Matt. 5:17-18)

1. You shall have no other gods before me.

2"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3"You shall have no other gods before me.(Ex. 20:2-3)

The first commandment is clear about which god they came from. Jews call him Yahweh. He is the God who delivered them from Egypt. Jesus did not violate the First Commandment. The passages below attest to that fact.

1. In the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus is consistent in denying he is God.

17And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. (Matt. 19:16-17; Mark 10:17-18; Luke 18:18-19)

2. The Synoptics are also consistent in having Jesus proclaim the first commandment as the most important.

28And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?"
29Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;
30and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' (Matt. 22:36-38; Mark 12:28-30; Luke 10:25-28)

3. Even in the Book of John, Jesus declares that the Father is greater than him. He came as an agent of God.

16For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:16-17)

29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30I and the Father are one."(John 10:29-30)

28You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
29And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place, you may believe.
30I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me;
31but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go hence. (John 14:28-30)

The Trinity

The issue is that by deifying Jesus, the Christian Fathers not only violated the First Commandment, they violated Jesus' teachings. The Trinity is the Christian doctrine that the Father, the Son and the Spirit are three gods and one god at the same time. Forget that Trinity hokum nonsense. The Bible does not support the idea that Yahweh and Jesus are the same. Two popular passages do not support it either.

1. Matthew lists the Father, Son and Holy Spirit separately. It does not say they are one and the same God.

19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt. 28:19)

To Jews, Yahweh is a Unitarian God. Isaiah saw the Holy Spirit as synonymous with God or as a way describing his presence.

10But they rebelled and grieved his holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.
11Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses his servant. Where is he who brought up out of the sea the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his holy Spirit, (Isaiah 63:10-11)

Other passages use "the Spirit of God."

2The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the the face of the waters. (Gen. 1:2)

2. Christians take the phrase in John 1:2, "He was in the beginning with God," to be describing Jesus.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was in the beginning with God;
3all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made (John 1:1-3)

But further down, John tells us that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. (John 1:14)

3. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together."

Having admitted there is no single term, the CE goes on to cite John 10:38 as a supporting proof: "the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

38but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." (John 10:38)

But then the CE ignores the passage preceding John 10:38 where Jesus says, "If I am not going the works of my Father, then do not believe me."

37If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; (John 10:37)

How does it add up? When Jesus says he is in the Father, it is an expression of devotion similar to the United States motto, E Pluribus Unum-one out of many. It does not mean he is literally in the Father.

4. The Trinity evolved out of political considerations; 'divine revelation' had nothing to do with it. In the earliest years, when Jesus was deified, a storm of controversies brewed. If Christianity was to remain a monotheistic religion and Jesus was a God, how does it reconcile with the Father? Was Jesus a man in whom the Spirit of God dwelt? Was he a Divine Spirit who assumed flesh? Was he purely a Divine Spirit? The Christian community was like a cackling hen house over this issue.

Two schools of thought emerged. The Trinitarians saw the divinity of the Son as being within the Godhead. The Arians saw the Son as an intermediary-a being separate from the Father. The Trinity won out at the First Council of Nicea in 325 CE by decree of the pagan Roman emperor Constantine. But Arianism wouldn't go away. It wasn't settled until the First Council of Constantinople when the Roman Emperor Theodosius in 381 CE issued an imperial decree, establishing The Nicene Creed

In sum, the nature of Christ's divinity wasn't settled until 350 years after his time. It was settled by a legislative council. It was given the force of law by imperial decree. And finally, it was settled for political reasons based on which explanation was the most palatable.

(For more details see Early Christian Heresies by Joan O'Grady or search some of these key words on the web.)

2. You shall not make graven images of anything on heaven or earth.

4"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.(Ex. 20:4-6)

There are no cases of Jesus making graven images, but a strong case can be made against the Christian Church. The crucifix qualifies as a graven image, and a disgusting one at that.

3. You shall not take the name of your God in vain.

7"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

There can be no more of an egregious case of Jesus showing disrespect then when he denied God before he died. It was God's plan and he wanted no part of it.

46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46)

4. Keep the sabbath day holy and do not do any work.

8"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
10but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
11for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. (Ex. 20:8-11)

1. No only were he and his disciples stealing on the Sabbath, but when the Pharisees saw them plucking and rubbing the grains to make them edible, they rightly saw it as work. Jesus justified himself by calling himself lord of the Sabbath.

1On a sabbath, while he was going through the grainfields, his disciples plucked and ate some heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands.
2But some of the Pharisees said, "Why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath?"
3And Jesus answered, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
4how he entered the house of God, and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those with him?"
5And he said to them, "The Son of man is lord of the sabbath." (Luke 6:1-5)

2. The ruler of the synagogue took issue with Jesus healing on the Sabbath. It was not an emergency matter. Jesus got indignant and called them hypocrites. In verse 15, his reference to trivial work was meant to justify his healing activities as something comparable.

10Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
11And there was a woman who had had a spirit of infirmity for eighteen years; she was bent over and could not fully straighten herself.
12And when Jesus saw her, he called her and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
13And he laid his hands upon her, and immediately she was made straight, and she praised God.
14But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the sabbath, said to the people, "There are six days on which work ought to be done; come on those days and be healed, and not on the sabbath day."
15Then the Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the sabbath untie his ox or his ass from the manger, and lead it away to water it?
16And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?"
17As he said this, all his adversaries were put to shame; and all the people rejoiced at all the glorious things that were done by him. (Luke 12:10-17)

3. Jesus was consistent in ignoring the law against healing on the Sabbath. On another occasion he snubbed the hospitality of his host. His reasoning about an ox that fell in a well did not apply. His healing was not an emergency.

1One sabbath when he went to dine at the house of a ruler who belonged to the Pharisees, they were watching him.
2And behold, there was a man before him who had dropsy.
3And Jesus spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath, or not?"
4But they were silent. Then he took him and healed him, and let him go.
5And he said to them, "Which of you, having a son or an ox that has fallen into a well, will not immediately pull him out on a sabbath day?"
6And they could not reply to this. (Luke 14:1-6)

5. Honor your father and mother.

12"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you.(Ex. 20:12)

1. Jesus' father Joseph is mentioned only a few times in the NT and almost exclusively in the birth and childhood stories. It appears that God the Father replaced Joseph when Jesus was baptized. To Jesus, he was the son of no one else except God. He expected the same of his followers.

2. He denied a man time to bury his father.

21Another of the disciples said to him, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father."
22But Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead." (Matt. 8:21-22)

3. He came to break families apart. Whoever loves his parents more than him is not worthy of him.

35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36and a man's foes will be those of his own household.
37He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 12:51-53)

4. He disowned his family

31And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
32And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you."
33And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
34And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
35Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Mark 3:31-35, Matt. 12:46-49, Luke 8:19-21)

5. If they don't hate their family, they are not worthy of being his disciple.

26"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

6. He spoke harshly to his mother.

3When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."
4And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come." (John 2:3-4)

6. Do not kill.

13"You shall not kill.(Ex. 20:13)

1. He didn't come to bring peace, he brought a sword.

34"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:34)

2. He advocated killing children for speaking evil of their parents. Compare the irony with the way Jesus treated his family in commandment five.

3He answered them, "And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
4For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.'
5But you say, 'If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' (Matt. 15:3-5)

3. Jesus killed a herd of 2,000 swine when he cured a demon possessed man by chasing the demons into the herd. The swine rushed into the sea and drowned themselves. He virtually destroyed the farmer's livelihood. Those who saw it, begged for Jesus to leave the neighborhood.

11Now a great herd of swine was feeding there on the hillside;
12and they begged him, "Send us to the swine, let us enter them."
13So he gave them leave. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered the swine; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea.
14The herdsmen fled, and told it in the city and in the country. And people came to see what it was that had happened.
15And they came to Jesus, and saw the demoniac sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, the man who had had the legion; and they were afraid.
16And those who had seen it told what had happened to the demoniac and to the swine.
17And they began to beg Jesus to depart from their neighborhood. (Mark 5:11-17)

4. Those who did want him to reign over them deserve to be slain in his presence.

27But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.'" (Luke 19:27)

5. If you don't have a sword, sell something and buy one.

36He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one. (Luke 22:36)

7. Do not commit adultery.

14"You shall not commit adultery.(Ex. 20:14)

1. His refusal to condemn an adulteress seems charitable. But in the context, when Jews were about to stone a woman for adultery in accordance with Mosaic Law (Lev 20:10), instead of condemning the law for being overly cruel, Jesus defended her by challenging the hypocrisy of her accusers. "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." He did not ask her to repent and ask forgiveness. His point was to condemn all for being sinners.

4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery.
5Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?"
6This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground.
7And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."
8And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground.
9But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.
10Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again." (John 8:4-11)

2. Jesus' celibacy is questionable. He and his disciples had a bunch of groupie women who followed them around. Readers can judge for themselves if the phrase, "provided for them out of their means," implies sex. At least one, Joanna, was married.

1Soon afterward he went on through cities and villages, preaching and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him,
2and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out,
3and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means.(Luke 8:1-3)

3. Mary Magdalene's love for Jesus is well attested. She is the only person who appears in all four Gospels who went first to visit Jesus' tomb (Matt. 28:1, Mark 16:1, Luke 24:10, John 20:1). Her attempt to hold Jesus, suggests a lover's embrace.

16Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned and said to him in Hebrew, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
18Mary Magdalene went and said to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"; and she told them that he had said these things to her. (John 20:16-18)

8. Do not steal.

15"You shall not steal.(Ex. 20:15)

1. Jesus and his disciples helped themselves to a farmer's grains. They did not ask, they just went in and helped themselves

1"At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat." (Matt. 12:1)

2. He sent two disciples to steal a colt. When the owners caught them, they said Jesus has need of it. Presuming the owners feared his wrath, they did not object. Either that or they were outnumbered.

30saying, "Go into the village opposite, where on entering you will find a colt tied, on which no one has ever yet sat; untie it and bring it here.
31If any one asks you, 'Why are you untying it?' you shall say this, 'The Lord has need of it.'"
32So those who were sent went away and found it as he had told them.
33And as they were untying the colt, its owners said to them, "Why are you untying the colt?"
34And they said, "The Lord has need of it."
35And they brought it to Jesus, and throwing their garments on the colt they set Jesus upon it. (Luke 19:30-35)

3. Jesus advocated stealing with parable of an employee who, on his own, sold his master's goods at discount prices. If he got fired, his new friends would help him. To make his parable sound like he was not advocating stealing, he has the master commending the employee for shrewdness.

1He also said to the disciples, "There was a rich man who had a steward, and charges were brought to him that this man was wasting his goods.
2And he called him and said to him, 'What is this that I hear about you? Turn in the account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward.'
3And the steward said to himself, 'What shall I do, since my master is taking the stewardship away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, and I am ashamed to beg.
4I have decided what to do, so that people may receive me into their houses when I am put out of the stewardship.'
5So, summoning his master's debtors one by one, he said to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?'
6He said, 'A hundred measures of oil.' And he said to him, 'Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.'
7Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' He said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.'
8The master commended the dishonest steward for his shrewdness; for the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light.
9And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal habitations. (Luke 16.1-9)

9. Do not bear false witness against your neighbor.

16"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.(Ex. 20:16)

1. He lied when he told his disciples he would not go to the feast. He waited until they were gone, then he went in private.

8Go to the feast yourselves; I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come."
9So saying, he remained in Galilee.
10But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. (John 7:8-10)

2. Jesus biggest lies of all were to his disciples. To get them to follow him, he warned they will have to deny themselves and endure suffering on account of him, and maybe even forfeit their life to be saved.

34And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
35For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.
36For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world and forfeit his life?
37For what can a man give in return for his life? (Mark 8:34-36)

He promised to make their burden easy for them.

28Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matt. 11:28-30)

He promised that if can endure to the end, they will be saved.

22and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. (Matt. 10:22)

He even said he has the power on earth to forgive sins. But he didn't purge their sins while he was on earth.

6But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 9:6)

He cursed Peter him by calling him Satan and not on the side of God-not a good sign.

32And he said this plainly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
33But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are not on the side of God, but of men." (Mark 8:32-33)

He told them he will return soon with his angels to bring them to heaven.

30then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory;
31and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt. 24:30-34)

But after he died, he didn't return on the clouds of heaven to rescue his disciples. He ascended without bringing them with him, or coming back for them. Though he blessed them, that doesn't carry any more weight than a pat on the back. In their happiness, they didn't realize they were taken.

50Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them.
51While he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven.
52And they returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
53and were continually in the temple blessing God. (Luke 24:50-52)

Because the end didn't come, Jesus could not have fulfilled his promises. He used his disciples to his advantage.

10. Do not covet your neighbor's house, his wife, servents or anything else that is your neighbor's.

17"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's (Ex. 20:17)

To covet means to want what belongs to somebody else. To perform a service for charity is one thing; charitable gifts are a voluntary offering. But Jesus transgressed the boundaries of asking for donations. Because he felt he deserved compensation for his services, he threatened if they were inadequate.

This is reminiscence of the squeegee people for which New York City was once famous for. They would come up to your car and wash your windshield. If you didn't 'tip' them, they got angry

1. Jesus felt that he was entitled to be fed and clothed by whomever he approached. If they did not offer, he threatened eternal punishment.

40And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
41Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
45Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:40-46)

2. He taught his disciples that townspeople had an obligation to give them food and drink for their labors. If they did not, he promised to make their lives more miserable than what the people of Sodom suffered. He even recognized that many would not be receptive.

3Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.
4Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and salute no one on the road.
5Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house!'
6And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you.
7And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house.
8Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you;
9heal the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
10But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,
11'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.'
12I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town. (Luke 10:2-8)

3. He thought nothing of waking his friends up in the middle of night to ask them for food. He felt that by being annoying, they were more likely to give him what he wanted.

5And he said to them, "Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves;
6for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him';
7and he will answer from within, 'Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything'?
8I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him whatever he needs.
9And I tell you, Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. (Luke 11:5-10)

Final thought

Some apologists would argue that as a God, Jesus cannot sin; only humans can sin. If that be the case, then if there was no effort to avoid sin, his death and resurrection are meaningless. The gospels intended for him to be a man who resisted sin as illustrated when the devil tried to tempt him. But as we have seen here, he didn't resist sin. So his death and resurrection are still meaningless.